TOPIC: Should Eldritch set bonuses be adjusted?

Harlax wrote: Where does LoDS fit in your proposal?

At this point it doesn't. I am only looking at the Eldritch 2 piece set. That set is greater in power than 2 Legendary's and 1 Relic (for Druid/Ranger).

Ed

MasterED wrote: D) So why is too much healing bad? It creates issue balancing the dungeon. It can marginalize new players when they only heal for 1 point on a spell and another heals for 11. Before they know why they feel insignificant.

Why are you singling out healing as far as new players feeling marginalized?

Won't they feel marginalized when:
* they miss on a slide of 19 and someone else hits on a slide of 10?
* they hit for +2 damage and someone else hits for +25?
* a monster rolls a 10 and hits them, and rolls a 19 and missed someone else?
* they roll a 19 and miss their save (which happened to a friend of mine) and someone else rolls a 10 and makes their save?
* The monster resists their spells, but the other spellcaster's spells go through automatically?
* An area attack does 20 damage, and they die but other characters laugh it off?
* Etc, etc.

It seems like new players have the same potential to be marginalized in nearly every combat category (except skill at sliding) due to a huge token advantage of some token-rich players. Are you planning on nerfing all of those categories as well so that new players don't feel marginalized?

MasterED wrote: Executive Summary - The Eldritch Set Needs a Correction

Background - The Eldritch Set is obtained by equipping at least 2 of the existing Eldritch items:

• Ring of Supreme Elemental Command (2012 Eldritch)
• Rod of Seven Parts (2014 Grand Eldritch )
• Boots of Four Wind (2016 Eldritch)
• Kilt of Unknown Power (2019 Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 3 tokens)
• Teeth of Cavadar (2021 Grand Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 7 tokens)

Current Set Bonuses (find more @ TokenDB at tokendb.com/token/rod-of-seven-parts/ )

Eldritch Duo
When at least two items are equipped, spellcasters ignore Spell Resistance, healing spells heal an additional 10 HP (see Multi-Target Note below), and melee attacks ignore Damage Reduction. Druids or Rangers with at least two Eldritch items gain one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

Eldritch Trio
Same as the duo, except any class wearing at least three Eldritch items gains one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

There are a lot of good points on why the set bonus should not be changed and this decision is not the case of clear right or wrong choice. It is question of what is best for the game and only Jeff will be able to decide that.

A) In my opinion, Jeff attempted to correct what he saw as an issue with the Eldritch 2 piece set and got a lot of push back from the community because he had already ruled one way. Why the push back, because everyone loves their character power. What is difficult to do is to step out of the game and look and predict the impact of a overly powerful item. As we see now the bonus is overkill and if not corrected will continue to unbalance the game. If TD gets too unbalanced it will lose players similar to the issues Magic had. We need to remain vigilant and take action sooner rather than later.

B) Matthew has already done a wonderful power analysis ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=244806&start=24#281236 ) showing with the Eldritch set bonus (+10 Heal) alone adding 100 (10 heal spells) hps of curing. If you add in the Lenses of Divine Sight (2014 OOP) that will double it to 200. This alone is keeping the parties well healed.

C) Couple the plentiful healing with the additional Eldritch pieces in the next few years (2020, 2021) the amount of 2 and 3 piece Eldritch sets will significantly increase thereby increasing the already abundant healing thereby aggravating the game balance issue.

D) So why is too much healing bad? It creates issue balancing the dungeon. It can marginalize new players when they only heal for 1 point on a spell and another heals for 11. Before they know why they feel insignificant.

E) It will be easier to get the 2 piece set and the current bonus favors Druid/Ranger - this will cause new players that have just gotten their 2 piece set to play that class for 5th level. Increasing the demand for two already crowded classes.

F) The most powerful tokens in the game (barring Artifacts) are Legendary. Two legendary tokens add +5 healing (Drue's +5 Baton of Focus and Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus) - a two piece Eldritch set should not have the power of two legendary tokens.

G) If a change is going to be made it should be made sooner rather than later so players can make appropriate plans which includes their purchasing plans.

So how do we fix this problem. There are many possibilities and I am fine with any that promote good game balance and forward thinking. Here is my personal choice. I am not saying it is the best and would gladly see a correction over none.

Proposed 2 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +4 Healing (this gives the bonus the level of just over 2 Relic pieces - Charm of Heroism and Ring of Greater Focus)

Proposed 3 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +6 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation

Proposed 4 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +8 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation, +3 Damage (All Types)

Proposed 5 Piece Bonus
TBD

This gives the growth possibilities for the 5/6/7 set if ever created. Odds are the players that have the 3 piece set bonus now will be getting the tokens for the 4/5 so ultimately for them it will be a negligible loss in power. For the new players coming in and only getting a 2 or maybe 3 set they still get a strong set bonus.

What if we just wait and see? That is an option and there will likely be more push back on a change because people will be getting close to the set bonus. If we wait too long we may not be able to recover.

Ed

Nicely done Ed. I'm on board with this.

Harlax wrote: I agree that the title of this thread could have been better chosen. Something like "Do we need to revise the Eldritch Set bonus"

I would support an Epic level dungeon. Why not try that first before we try radical surgery?

Well, I did add the question mark!

Is that topic title better?

bpsymington wrote: Is that topic title better?

Perfect.

MasterED wrote:

Harlax wrote: Where does LoDS fit in your proposal?

At this point it doesn't. I am only looking at the Eldritch 2 piece set. That set is greater in power than 2 Legendary's and 1 Relic (for Druid/Ranger).

Ed

I find your proposal intriguing. But I can't evaluate it without knowing what happens to LoDS.

So a couple thoughts.

I really like the 2-piece combo bonus bypassing spell resistance - I just got this - let me use it!

Not crazy that LoDS doubles healing bonuses, while MEC only doubles base damage, but I speak as a biased wizard and I know Jeff has ruled on this before, so I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Perhaps NM needs to add some mechanics to balance dungeon difficulty: darkstain, poison, psionics, level drain (can you imagine a 5th level character gets hit by a wight, and the DM hands over a 4th level character card and says, here you go), curses, disease, etc.

MasterED wrote: Executive Summary - The Eldritch Set Needs a Correction

Background - The Eldritch Set is obtained by equipping at least 2 of the existing Eldritch items:

• Ring of Supreme Elemental Command (2012 Eldritch)
• Rod of Seven Parts (2014 Grand Eldritch )
• Boots of Four Wind (2016 Eldritch)
• Kilt of Unknown Power (2019 Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 3 tokens)
• Teeth of Cavadar (2021 Grand Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 7 tokens)

Current Set Bonuses (find more @ TokenDB at tokendb.com/token/rod-of-seven-parts/ )

Eldritch Duo
When at least two items are equipped, spellcasters ignore Spell Resistance, healing spells heal an additional 10 HP (see Multi-Target Note below), and melee attacks ignore Damage Reduction. Druids or Rangers with at least two Eldritch items gain one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

Eldritch Trio
Same as the duo, except any class wearing at least three Eldritch items gains one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

There are a lot of good points on why the set bonus should not be changed and this decision is not the case of clear right or wrong choice. It is question of what is best for the game and only Jeff will be able to decide that.

A) In my opinion, Jeff attempted to correct what he saw as an issue with the Eldritch 2 piece set and got a lot of push back from the community because he had already ruled one way. Why the push back, because everyone loves their character power. What is difficult to do is to step out of the game and look and predict the impact of a overly powerful item. As we see now the bonus is overkill and if not corrected will continue to unbalance the game. If TD gets too unbalanced it will lose players similar to the issues Magic had. We need to remain vigilant and take action sooner rather than later.

B) Matthew has already done a wonderful power analysis ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=244806&start=24#281236 ) showing with the Eldritch set bonus (+10 Heal) alone adding 100 (10 heal spells) hps of curing. If you add in the Lenses of Divine Sight (2014 OOP) that will double it to 200. This alone is keeping the parties well healed.

C) Couple the plentiful healing with the additional Eldritch pieces in the next few years (2020, 2021) the amount of 2 and 3 piece Eldritch sets will significantly increase thereby increasing the already abundant healing thereby aggravating the game balance issue.

D) So why is too much healing bad? It creates issue balancing the dungeon. It can marginalize new players when they only heal for 1 point on a spell and another heals for 11. Before they know why they feel insignificant.

E) It will be easier to get the 2 piece set and the current bonus favors Druid/Ranger - this will cause new players that have just gotten their 2 piece set to play that class for 5th level. Increasing the demand for two already crowded classes.

F) The most powerful tokens in the game (barring Artifacts) are Legendary. Two legendary tokens add +5 healing (Drue's +5 Baton of Focus and Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus) - a two piece Eldritch set should not have the power of two legendary tokens.

G) If a change is going to be made it should be made sooner rather than later so players can make appropriate plans which includes their purchasing plans.

So how do we fix this problem. There are many possibilities and I am fine with any that promote good game balance and forward thinking. Here is my personal choice. I am not saying it is the best and would gladly see a correction over none.

Proposed 2 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +4 Healing (this gives the bonus the level of just over 2 Relic pieces - Charm of Heroism and Ring of Greater Focus)

Proposed 3 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +6 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation

Proposed 4 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +8 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation, +3 Damage (All Types)

Proposed 5 Piece Bonus
TBD

This gives the growth possibilities for the 5/6/7 set if ever created. Odds are the players that have the 3 piece set bonus now will be getting the tokens for the 4/5 so ultimately for them it will be a negligible loss in power. For the new players coming in and only getting a 2 or maybe 3 set they still get a strong set bonus.

What if we just wait and see? That is an option and there will likely be more push back on a change because people will be getting close to the set bonus. If we wait too long we may not be able to recover.

Ed

As a player that has yet to benefit from the Eldritch set bonus, I agree that the current bonus they have provides too much of a benefit. What Ed proposed is somewhat more balanced but i still feel it is strong (not insanely as is now) as the Eldritch tokens themselves already has a token benefit from stats, abilities, etc..
I would recommend the cap be maxed at 4 benefits.

Yes, this decision will affect token buyers but as others have mentioned that Jeff should make decisions based on the overall betterment and balance of the game and it's future.

my 2 cents.

MasterED wrote: Executive Summary - The Eldritch Set Needs a Correction

Background - The Eldritch Set is obtained by equipping at least 2 of the existing Eldritch items:

• Ring of Supreme Elemental Command (2012 Eldritch)
• Rod of Seven Parts (2014 Grand Eldritch )
• Boots of Four Wind (2016 Eldritch)
• Kilt of Unknown Power (2019 Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 3 tokens)
• Teeth of Cavadar (2021 Grand Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 7 tokens)

Current Set Bonuses (find more @ TokenDB at tokendb.com/token/rod-of-seven-parts/ )

Eldritch Duo
When at least two items are equipped, spellcasters ignore Spell Resistance, healing spells heal an additional 10 HP (see Multi-Target Note below), and melee attacks ignore Damage Reduction. Druids or Rangers with at least two Eldritch items gain one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

Eldritch Trio
Same as the duo, except any class wearing at least three Eldritch items gains one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

There are a lot of good points on why the set bonus should not be changed and this decision is not the case of clear right or wrong choice. It is question of what is best for the game and only Jeff will be able to decide that.

A) In my opinion, Jeff attempted to correct what he saw as an issue with the Eldritch 2 piece set and got a lot of push back from the community because he had already ruled one way. Why the push back, because everyone loves their character power. What is difficult to do is to step out of the game and look and predict the impact of a overly powerful item. As we see now the bonus is overkill and if not corrected will continue to unbalance the game. If TD gets too unbalanced it will lose players similar to the issues Magic had. We need to remain vigilant and take action sooner rather than later.

B) Matthew has already done a wonderful power analysis ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=244806&start=24#281236 ) showing with the Eldritch set bonus (+10 Heal) alone adding 100 (10 heal spells) hps of curing. If you add in the Lenses of Divine Sight (2014 OOP) that will double it to 200. This alone is keeping the parties well healed.

C) Couple the plentiful healing with the additional Eldritch pieces in the next few years (2020, 2021) the amount of 2 and 3 piece Eldritch sets will significantly increase thereby increasing the already abundant healing thereby aggravating the game balance issue.

D) So why is too much healing bad? It creates issue balancing the dungeon. It can marginalize new players when they only heal for 1 point on a spell and another heals for 11. Before they know why they feel insignificant.

E) It will be easier to get the 2 piece set and the current bonus favors Druid/Ranger - this will cause new players that have just gotten their 2 piece set to play that class for 5th level. Increasing the demand for two already crowded classes.

F) The most powerful tokens in the game (barring Artifacts) are Legendary. Two legendary tokens add +5 healing (Drue's +5 Baton of Focus and Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus) - a two piece Eldritch set should not have the power of two legendary tokens.

G) If a change is going to be made it should be made sooner rather than later so players can make appropriate plans which includes their purchasing plans.

So how do we fix this problem. There are many possibilities and I am fine with any that promote good game balance and forward thinking. Here is my personal choice. I am not saying it is the best and would gladly see a correction over none.

Proposed 2 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +4 Healing (this gives the bonus the level of just over 2 Relic pieces - Charm of Heroism and Ring of Greater Focus)

Proposed 3 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +6 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation

Proposed 4 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +8 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation, +3 Damage (All Types)

Proposed 5 Piece Bonus
TBD

This gives the growth possibilities for the 5/6/7 set if ever created. Odds are the players that have the 3 piece set bonus now will be getting the tokens for the 4/5 so ultimately for them it will be a negligible loss in power. For the new players coming in and only getting a 2 or maybe 3 set they still get a strong set bonus.

What if we just wait and see? That is an option and there will likely be more push back on a change because people will be getting close to the set bonus. If we wait too long we may not be able to recover.

Ed

I like what youve done spreading the eldritch bonus out, but i have two concerns:
1. Please no 5 piece or greater bonus; max at 4 piece and make it more special than just a few extra damage. Eldeitch items beyond 4 will still be powerful on their own, and allow players to change up their build while still getting the max set bonus.
2. I wonder if jeff will consider the tiers of healing bonus to be too confusing. I know it is simple if you are using an app/program to calculate stats, but jeff may prefer to keep bonuses more easily delineated.

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: 1) Jeff ruled on this two years ago, and the basic facts haven't changed. It's true that the Kilt was added as an Eldritch Token, but Jeff was well aware of the Eldritch Bonuses when he made his decision. It's true that over the next number of years there will be more people with the 2 Eldritch Bonus, but there are a bunch of people with it already. In his ruling (which I referenced in a previous post), Jeff ruled to leave the LoDS bonus as-is, specifically referencing the interaction with the Eldritch Set. To me, that resolves the issue, and I'm guessing that Jeff feels the same way and is in no hurry to reopen this can of worms after already giving a definitive ruling on it.

Just as a matter of fact, we:

a. Don't know whether Jeff had decided to add a 3 year Eldritch UR transmute at the point that the ruling was made.

b. Do know that the first take at the 3 year Eldritch UR transmute during design for the 2017 tokens was planned for the lenses slot, which would certainly make difference in this conversation, as if you're getting to your Eldrtich 2 piece with a Lense slot item you can't equip Lenses of Divine Sight (unless you are Lazlo).

For balance purposes (and greater symmetry), shouldn't the proposed 3-year UR transmute really be a 4-year transmute?

That's what I'd thought also, but Jeff wanted a 3 year transmute. I'm guessing that the bonuses worked out best that way (maybe between the three they deal with St, Dex, and Con).

Maybe during token design we can convince jeff that the cycle of 3 kilts with plus/minus STR, DEX, CON needs a 4th item that is all plus to INT, WIS, CHA.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I have no idea how most of you are coming up with Eldritch sets and too much healing will "break the game."

Seriously... explain it to me.

True Dungeon modules are just like D&D modules:

3 groups of people (1-10) go through a D&D module. Let's use Tomb Of Horrors because it is so awesome and deadly.


Party 1:

Are all between 1st and 4th level characters. TPK in the Tomb before they even get a quarter way into the module.

-- Translated into TD these are all players who have been playing TD for 1-4 years with nothing beyond a couple Relic Tokens.

Party 2:

Are all between 10-12th level characters with years upon years worth of great magic items of various quality and quantity. They make it through the Tomb with a great degree of difficulty and lose a few characters to death from the Tomb and some others getting resurrected along the way. Heck! Even some of the resurrected characters die again while on the way to completing the module.

-- Translated into TD terms these are all players with 5+ years of playing TD and characters made up of BiS and a lot of Relics and a handful of Legendaries.

Party 3:

This is the adventuring party that is comprised of a bunch of people that have either been adventuring for decades together (like my friends) or a party made up of people that have been adventuring for decades but not together.

The people comprising the party have also been through the Tomb of Horrors multiple times in their lifetime. They know it like the back of their hand. They also specifically outfitted themselves to beat the Tomb.

They breeze through the Tomb to the chagrin of the DM and laugh and high five all the way.

-- Translated into TD terms... these are the TD'ers that have been playing for 8 or more years. These are the TD'er that only have UC and R Tokens as part of their builds because they actually are BiS. They are also the people that have gone through the Dungeon Runs multiple times during GenCon and know how to solve each puzzle and how to defeat each Monster.


So, there you have it. 3 distinct and varying groups. 3 groups going through the Tomb Of Horrors. 3 groups that don't individually interact with any of the other groups. One group is a guaranteed TPK. One group defeats the Tomb with a lot of fatalities and a huge degree of difficulty. And, another group laughs their way through it because it's not their first rodeo.

I myself have gone through the Tomb at least 4 times in my life since the mid-1980's. My most recent time was late last year. It was myself and two of my besties that I have been playing with since 1983 as the players. The DM was also the regular DM for us since that era gone by. We barely survived and our characters were all over 10th level and enough magical items to choke a Gelatinous Cube. Granted, the 3rd player fell off the wagon in real life and never finished the Tomb after we got beyond the 2nd hallway. He just stopped showing up. A damn shame because he is a great guy. And, he was our Cleric. But, we ran with his character anyway in his honor and to get the healing and such.

My other brotha-from-anotha-motha played two characters. I myself just played my Krynn Minotaur F/M-U/C/T and his (Koraf's) NPC fighter Lucky Orc. Lucky Orc was a 0-level Orc we rescued from a prison a couple years ago during our run through the Giant-series modules. He became my NPC after months of gaming because the DM deemed it so.

Anyway... I digress...

The point is that 3 distinct parties have now gone through Tomb of Horrors. All 3 had differing degrees of results after the the adventure. None of the groups have affected the other groups at all. Maybe the 3 groups meet up afterwards and talk smack about the Tomb. But, none are going to complain and be bitter about the end results. It was an adventure involving 3 different parties who were not equipped equally or had the some adventuring time in D&D. That's the way it works.

True Dungeon is the same way. It is. No matter how hard some of you will try to argue or refute it... it is.

Not everyone coming into TD has the same experience. Not all have the same Tokens. Not all love it as much as some others.

There is nothing wrong with the Tokens or the set bonuses. Sure... some are overpowered when used in conjunction with some other Tokens. Here's the thing... it doesn't break the game overall. It may break the game for a handful of parties that are geared up with Relics and Legendaries and going all out. But, TD isn't all of a sudden going to self-destruct because of power creep and such.

I myself love running with Rybak the Dwarf Fighter and all his URs/Relics/Legendaries. I earned those Tokens and lovingly collected and transmuted for them. I'm going to use them. No question about it. Here's what I do, though... I only ask for healing when and if I am dangerously close to dying. Yes, the Cleric and Druid in Team Yeti can dish out 100+ points of healing. I don't ask until I'm below 20 HPs. That's my way of making the game still dangerous and interesting.

If so many of you are concerned about the amount of healing that can be done then just don't use it. Or have your Cleric/Druid say they are only going to heal a certain amount. You can do that. It's your spells... you can decide how much you want to do. It's the same way in 1st Edition D&D... the rules were written by Gary Gygax to be adaptable and tweaked. I spoke to Gary in length at the GenCon the year before he passed away. He agreed with this and told me he was so happy my group totally understood what he wrote and how it can be tweaked to fit a group's dynamic. To this day I still get a feeling of giddiness seeing his face light up when he told me that. I was like being in the presence of Gawd and being told you're doing it right.