TOPIC: Should Eldritch set bonuses be adjusted?

This thread started in the Lords and Ladies section. Some people felt that if it were moved to a section with more public access there would be more feedback. As someone who did't feel too strongly one way or the other, I was asked to post it.

To start lets define the issue. There are 3 current pieces of the eldritch set

Supreme Ring of Elemental Command
Rod of Seven Parts
Boots of the Four Winds
(with 2 more on the way kilt & teeth)

The current set powers are

Eldritch Duo
Healing spells heal an additional 10 HP,
Spellcasters ignore Spell Resistance,
Melee attacks ignore Damage Reduction,
Druids & Rangers gain one character level.

Eldritch Trio
All classes gains one character level.

I don't believe there is a 4-pirece set bonus, and don't know if one has been proposed for the 5-piece set.


People have proposed a wide variety of solutions, as well as some saying they don't see the need for a change. Feel free to offer suggestions or thoughts. Please keep the level of discussion civil and friendly.

Thanks!

I'll state once my thoughts:

Premise 1: A desirable state of affairs is to be able to design a dungeon that offers challenge to a broad variety of token builds, from starting 10-pack to Best in Slot.

Premise 2: If healing were too plentiful a resource relative to the damage the dungeon can dish out, the dungeon is not challenging.

Fact 1: A 5th level skill test passing Cleric with 2 rares (Medallion of Focus, Lenses of Focus) and 2 ultra rares (Ring of Focus, +2 Baton of Focus) and therefore a +5 healing bonus has:
4x Cure Minor Wounds - 4*6 HP
3x Cure Light Wounds - 3*13 HP
2x Cure Moderate Wounds - 2*21 HP
1x Cure Serious Wounds - 1*29 HP

A grand total of: 134 points of healing.

Fact 2: By adding just 1 rare, 1 ulrarare, and 2 eldricth tokens to this build (Charm of Enlightenment, Lenses of Divine Sight, any 2 Eldritch tokens), this Cleric will now have:
4x Cure Minor Wounds - 4*16*2 HP
3x Cure Light Wounds - 3*23*2 HP
2x Cure Moderate Wounds - 2*31*2 HP
1x Cure Serious Wounds - 1*39*2 HP

A grand total of: 472 points of healing.

Fact 3: Druids have a large fraction of this amount of healing as well.

Argument:

Having 4 tokens, one of which is a rare, grant 300+ points of healing is not reasonable.

It makes it impractical to design a dungeon that would challenge a party with these tokens that won't slaughter a party without, and vice versa.

Having this much healing leads to somewhat degenerate strategies with Mad Evoker's Charm, as the -10 HP downside essentially disappears when every single spell the healer has heals more than 10 hp to 2 targets.

To some extent it takes healers out of the game: there is almost nothing they can do that would be more valuable to the party than heal if they have the option. A game is a series of interesting choices - if there is one clear best action the game is less fun.

300+ healing from 4 tokens is out of line with every other healing token in the game, it devalues other items like healing potions, scrolls, regeneration items, and damage reduction items.

The proportion of players/parties with these tokens is on the rise. Jeff only knows the number of Boots of the 4 Winds in circulation relative to the Ring and the Rod, and the number of Kilt of Tavernbane that are in the wild. If we are going to make a change, now is an opportune time, rather than when even more players have the set.

For new players I imagine the overall reaction would be negative in a mixed party where a Eldrtich+Lenses Druid is dishing out literally 20x the healing as the token 10-pack Cleric. "TD is pay to win - you can't even play unless you own $5000 in tokens!" is what I imagine they would say. The gap is so huge as to be very conspicuous. Attack hit and damage is less obvious, as new players generally won't be aware of how to interpret the party card - but healing and HP is something they can see easily since they track it themselves.


Proposals (pick one or several):

1. Alter Lenses of Divine Sight so they copy only the base healing of the spell, and any bonuses are applied as a pool to the targets.

2. Change the Eldritch 2 piece bonus to not grant +10 healing, have it grant a much lower number, or have its grant always be a pool that can never be doubled.

3. Make the Eldrich Healing +10 bonus an non-stacking/non-modifiable bonus. You can take the Eldrich +10, or you can take whatever else your tokens give you, you can't combine them.

4. Leave all the tokens alone. Change the Druid and Cleric cards so that they have these as their level 0 and 1 spells instead:

1x Cure Minor Wounds: Heal 4 points among any 2 or more targets.
1x Cure Light Wounds: Heal 10 (16 with skill test) points among any 2 or more targets

Since these are not single target spells, they will not work with Lenses of Divine Sight. The Eldtrich +10 would become a pool. It would still be very powerful, just no as powerful as it is now.

5. Rename the Eldrich healing bonus the "Vow of Poverty" bonus and make it:

For every treasure chip you are entitled to this run that you forgo, gain +1 to your healing bonus (limit 10).

The original title of this thread is biased, as it's a matter of opinion whether the Eldritch Set bonuses are currently broken. So I made a slight modification.

For reference, here were Jeff's comments on the 4th Level Bonus, I don't know of any comments on the 5th Level Bonus:

"Thank you all for the good feedback and opinion here. It is felt that Druids and Rangers get a good additional benefit from just being able to equip only 2 of the 3 items to get all the benefits.

That being said, there will someday be a 4th Eldritch item...and at that time I plan on giving Druids and Rangers a little extra bonus. "

This can be found on Post #47 of this link: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=589&id=241841&limit=12&start=36

For reference, here is a post Jeff made nearly 7 years ago listing the Eldritch 2 Item Set Bonuses. It is Post #70.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=121429&start=60#121498

It states: "Two-Piece Eldritch Set Power:  By carrying two items of Eldritch power, a character is infused with the very ancient and powerful druidical magic which has not been conjured for many millennia.  Character spell casters ignore any monster's Spell Resistance, healing spells do +10 points of healing and melee attacks ignore any damage resistance.  Any Druid or Ranger with two Eldritch items gains one character level."

Given that these bonuses have been in place for nearly 7 years, and many people have made multi-thousand dollar purchases based on those bonuses, I think it would be wrong and inadvisable to make changes to it now.

Also for reference, here is what Jeff Martin had to say regarding the Lenses of Divine Sight just over two years ago, and it also addresses the Eldritch Healing Bonus specifically. It is in Post #114 at this link: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=219191&start=108#219899 .

To me, this is definitive, particularly since the main issues haven't changed since this ruling was made.

============================================================

"After your good feedback, it has been made abundantly clear that we did, in fact, already rule that the effects of the +10 healing would apply to both healing spells when used with the Lenses of Divine Sight. I had wrongly thought the issue had not been decided, and that a ruling had never been made. It most certainly already had been made in the 2014 QTR when it stated:

"...all bonuses applied to the source spell are applied to the duplicate spell."

So, the LoDS would add +10 to both healing effects if the player has a Eldritch Set bonus."

Matthew Hayward wrote: To some extent it takes healers out of the game: there is almost nothing they can do that would be more valuable to the party than heal if they have the option. A game is a series of interesting choices - if there is one clear best action the game is less fun.

An alternative view: Without these bonuses, you may find that healers have to spend all their actions healing people or they die. With these bonuses the healers may actually have rounds where they don't need to spend their turn healing people.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Attack hit and damage is less obvious, as new players generally won't be aware of how to interpret the party card - but healing and HP is something they can see easily since they track it themselves.

I think you underestimate people noticing that they missed the monster when sliding a 19, while another player hit with a 3.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Proposals (pick one or several):

You left off the proposal for leaving tokens and cards alone and looking into how to add Epic difficulty to the dungeon (with no increased physical reward).

Matthew,

As always your analysis is appreciated. I do agree it is tough to design a dungeon and difficulty level that is challenging for parties both with and without the Eldritch set and Lenses of Divine Sight. Fiddy also makes good points about healers getting to do something besides healing once in a while.

However if everything remained the same, then the highest difficulty dungeon should be designed to require 600 points of healing for a party to make it safely through. This way a party can have two Eldritch healers and those healers can do some actual attacking, or one eldritch healer and one normal healer and do reasonably well, or no eldritch healers and a lot of consumable healing. I have no problem with the most difficult dungeon requiring serious tokens and/or consumables.

Matthew Hayward wrote: For new players I imagine the overall reaction would be negative in a mixed party where a Eldrtich+Lenses Druid is dishing out literally 20x the healing as the token 10-pack Cleric. "TD is pay to win - you can't even play unless you own $5000 in tokens!" is what I imagine they would say. The gap is so huge as to be very conspicuous. Attack hit and damage is less obvious, as new players generally won't be aware of how to interpret the party card - but healing and HP is something they can see easily since they track it themselves.

I really doubt these Newbies you mention are going around before, during, or after a Run asking other people how powerful their characters are. Most Newbies (like me back in 2005) only cared about the game and having fun with friends the first few times through.

Also, keep in mind, the Dungeon Runs are set up that you choose your difficulty. If a Party is not geared up they can choose Non-Lethal or Normal. Just because this is 'Merica doesn't mean theTD Newbies and non-Tokenholics are entitled to survive every time they go through. I died a few times over the past 11 years. Not once did I say: "I hate this game because I don't have $thousands of dollars$ in Tokens." No, I analyzed the game and Tokens and figured out what best to equip and bought and traded Tokens until I liked my character.

The game did adapt for Token power creep. The Hardcore and Nightmare versions got harder to ensure most long time Players felt challenged. Newbies aren't entitled to choose Hardcore or Nightmare just because others can who are better equipped. They can... they'll probably die, but they aren't entitled to get it and be guaranteed survival.

It's almost the same thing as taking a 1st Edition D&D character who is level 10-whatever and going through Tomb Of Horrors. Even jacked-out with enough magic items to choke a Gellantinous Cube they can still instantly die. But, being high level and going through years upon years of dungeon crawls they are rewarded with a lot of healing and resurrection spells/items. That's called a reward for suffering through the lower levels.

When a person works hard in life for what they have they feel good about what they treat themselves with. They treasure and take care of what they worked for.

What your proposing just seems like you're telling a first level D&D character: "Let's go through Tomb Of Horrors. It's okay if you are only first level going through a module designed for level 10 or better. You're entitled because it's not fair that you haven't earned what you deserve."

You're also just proposing something to punish those of us that have been with TD since the start. In this case Year 2 or 3 for me. Am I jealous because I wasn't there at the start and got some cool Artisan Tokens? Maybe a little. But, I'm more jealous I started playing MtG when Revised came out and wasn't there to get cool Alpha and Beta cards for Booster Pack prices instead of the prices that evolved from there. But, that's on me. I discovered the game late. I sure as heck aren't posting on their sites that the older cards need to be changed so those that have them are punished because I don't have them.

If certain TD people are bored because they have access to hundreds of points of healing then there is a simple solution:

Don't equip those Tokens.

Bang! Fixed.

Altering those Tokens is just punishment for those that spent the money/took time collecting and trading to acquire/transmute a specific Token to become an uber-Healer.

I say leave everything as is.

Rybak the Dwarf enjoys being able to taunt, take a major hit, and being healed up by his Legendary level Cleric and Druid. He doesn't believe in going out in a blaze of glory. Death is death and it's permanent. Rybak doesn't believe in the Kobeyashi Maru. Like Kirk, Rybak will alter things to win. In this case it's traveling with high level Healers and carrying enough Tokens that guarantee survival if something happens to the Healers.

Let it go, people. It's Jeff's game... he makes the rules. All I see is a bunch of whiners that cry when they don't like something. Just because we live in 'Merica doesn't mean you are entitled to what you want.

I agree that the title of this thread could have been better chosen. Something like "Do we need to revise the Eldritch Set bonus"

I would support an Epic level dungeon. Why not try that first before we try radical surgery?

Harlax wrote: I agree that the title of this thread could have been better chosen. Something like "Do we need to revise the Eldritch Set bonus"

I would support an Epic level dungeon. Why not try that first before we try radical surgery?

This. So this.

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote: I agree that the title of this thread could have been better chosen. Something like "Do we need to revise the Eldritch Set bonus"

I would support an Epic level dungeon. Why not try that first before we try radical surgery?

This. So this.

I am still working on my post but I have to respond to the question. Yes the Epic level dungeon will help with the high end token buyers. But this is about power creep. What is going to happen over the next few years is the high end abilities (Eldritch Set) will move down to the hardcore level players because anyone in the $250-$500 budget buying tokens will have Boots, Teeth, and Kilts. That means a lot more people with +10 healing which either means the hard core is going to have to get harder and will be an issue for the hard core groups that don't have the set bonus.

This doesn't impact me directly, it will impact many long TD players if power creep causes the casual player to not buy tickets which is what keeps TD around.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote: I agree that the title of this thread could have been better chosen. Something like "Do we need to revise the Eldritch Set bonus"

I would support an Epic level dungeon. Why not try that first before we try radical surgery?

This. So this.

I am still working on my post but I have to respond to the question. Yes the Epic level dungeon will help with the high end token buyers. But this is about power creep. What is going to happen over the next few years is the high end abilities (Eldritch Set) will move down to the hardcore level players because anyone in the $250-$500 budget buying tokens will have Boots, Teeth, and Kilts. That means a lot more people with +10 healing which either means the hard core is going to have to get harder and will be an issue for the hard core groups that don't have the set bonus.

This doesn't impact me directly, it will impact many long TD players if power creep causes the casual player to not buy tickets which is what keeps TD around.

Ed

Like you, I'll post more later, but I wanted to comment on one thing.

i doubt everyone with a $250 - $500 token budget is going to have the Eldritch Boots, Teeth, and Kilt.

The Boots have several out of print components, and will soon be out of print. Several Tooth tokens are also out of print. There will be lots of players that missed n out on those.

If someone is buying $250 - $500 in tokens from True Dungeon, they may well be focusing on Treasure Enhancing tokens, armor and weapon tokens, or class specific tokens instead of Eldritch Tokens.

I don't dispute that there will be s lot of people with two Eldritch Tokens - there already are - but I'd guess the majority of people spending $250 - $500 per year won't have them. Certainly not all of them will.