TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

I think it is clear that ghosting takes up some number of GenCon tickets and those tickets could have been used by actual people. Those actual people could have been newbies who could have joined our community and helped to support the game. It is also true that it is possible for somebody to use ghosting solely to collect treasure instead of enjoying the game as it was intended, which also could devalue treasure due to an increased number of draws. I don't know how much that happens though.

Those are the only downsides to ghosting that I'm aware of, and the only problem that we might be trying to solve.

Eliminating ghosting would upset some veteran players who are used to it. It definitely impacts people who organize groups of 10 that might have no-shows, or people who want to do challenge runs. It would also limit the need to create powerful builds, since the most challenge one could have is 10 players on a Nightmare run (which we showed was possible at TDC with only 5 useful tokens).

It is also possible that eliminating ghosting could cause the tickets to *not* sell out at GenCon. But we wouldn't know that until it was tried. If that happened then eliminating ghosting would reduce total revenue for True Adventures.

I don't think ghosting should be eliminated. I could be convinced to moderate it a little bit as follows:

• Like today, every ticket gets you a wristband and a 10-pack of tokens.
• Unlike today, treasure is handed out to one person at a time (based on the new TE rules).
• Unlike today, each person may have a max of two wristbands.

This means if you had only 8 of your 10 show up, you could still ghost the two missing ones. It also means you could organize 5-person "double down" runs like you can today. If you want to do a solo run, however, you'd only get ten 10-packs, 2 completion tokens, and 2 full sets of treasure draws. You could still equip synergy items on the ghosts though (so total treasure draws would be a max of 38 currently, excluding artifacts).

Doing a 3-man run would be not too bad. Each player buys 3-1/3 tickets, and each player gets 2 tickets worth of treasure, and 3 10-packs.

Rob F wrote: This has been a very interesting thread.

Indeed.

What concerns me most is that there's always a chance, no matter how small, that the ghosted ticket just boxed out a truly awesome new player from a truly awesome experience.

There is that small chance, yes.

But know what has an even bigger chance of boxing out some potential awesome newbie? The Price tag on the event.

True Dungeon is prohibitively expensive for most gamers. Ask any random gamer at GenCon who hasn't done TD, and they'll probably say, "I'd love to go on a run, but it's out of my price range" or "I've heard good and bad about it, and I'd like to try... but I don't want to spend that much in case the people who say It's over-rated are right."

Thing is, TD can't really lower the price tag much, while renting huge halls like Lucas Oil or the Convention Center. In fact, it's token sales which help to offset the price of the event, and pay for cool animatronic props and awesome scene dressing, and those fantastic NPC costumes. So when it comes down to it: Encouraging token sales helps offset the cost for New Players.

Know what else would offset the cost for newbies? Allowing someone with 10 CoA's to sponsor a run, where they get the bonus Treasure but the New Player gets the experience for FREE! Unfortunately... it looks like that's not the direction things are going

Kirk Bauer wrote: I think it is clear that ghosting takes up some number of GenCon tickets and those tickets could have been used by actual people. Those actual people could have been newbies who could have joined our community and helped to support the game. It is also true that it is possible for somebody to use ghosting solely to collect treasure instead of enjoying the game as it was intended, which also could devalue treasure due to an increased number of draws. I don't know how much that happens though.

Those are the only downsides to ghosting that I'm aware of, and the only problem that we might be trying to solve.

Eliminating ghosting would upset some veteran players who are used to it. It definitely impacts people who organize groups of 10 that might have no-shows, or people who want to do challenge runs. It would also limit the need to create powerful builds, since the most challenge one could have is 10 players on a Nightmare run (which we showed was possible at TDC with only 5 useful tokens).

It is also possible that eliminating ghosting could cause the tickets to *not* sell out at GenCon. But we wouldn't know that until it was tried. If that happened then eliminating ghosting would reduce total revenue for True Adventures.

I don't think ghosting should be eliminated. I could be convinced to moderate it a little bit as follows:

• Like today, every ticket gets you a wristband and a 10-pack of tokens.
• Unlike today, treasure is handed out to one person at a time (based on the new TE rules).
• Unlike today, each person may have a max of two wristbands.

This means if you had only 8 of your 10 show up, you could still ghost the two missing ones. It also means you could organize 5-person "double down" runs like you can today. If you want to do a solo run, however, you'd only get ten 10-packs, 2 completion tokens, and 2 full sets of treasure draws. You could still equip synergy items on the ghosts though (so total treasure draws would be a max of 38 currently, excluding artifacts).

Doing a 3-man run would be not too bad. Each player buys 3-1/3 tickets, and each player gets 2 tickets worth of treasure, and 3 10-packs.

I get four friends, if I have that many, and as we leave the coaching room I send them off to the "restroom" with a "meet me in two hours in the epilogue room."

They come back crying "we missed the dungeon, the lines were too long, but we still at least get our loot, right?"

The two biggest revenue sources for the event are tokens and tickets. I guess. I'm not sure Jeff wants to experiment with a rule change that could cut ticket sales significantly. Or maybe he does. But I can't be the only one who remembers how he seems so relieved when tickets sell out. I'm guessing he'd be stressing if they didn't at least come close.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Horrible idea.
I get five friends, if I have that many, and as we leave the coaching room I send them off to the "restroom" with a "meet me in two hours in the epilogue room."

They come back crying "we missed the dungeon, the lines were too long, but we still at least get our loot, right?"

'Hey, you cant come in here! Only players leaving the dungeon and volunteers are allowed...oh, you missed your start time? Sorry, treasure can only be given to players who carried TE through the dungeon. Maybe an AC can help get you into a later run?'

kurtreznor wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Horrible idea.
I get five friends, if I have that many, and as we leave the coaching room I send them off to the "restroom" with a "meet me in two hours in the epilogue room."

They come back crying "we missed the dungeon, the lines were too long, but we still at least get our loot, right?"

'Hey, you cant come in here! Only players leaving the dungeon and volunteers are allowed...oh, you missed your start time? Sorry, treasure can only be given to players who carried TE through the dungeon. Maybe an AC can help get you into a later run?'

It does beg the question, if a player has to leave to bathroom break, they get escorted out, do they end up at the epilogue room and are they allowed to get their tokens? (sure present your TEs) but is it allowed?

What about characters that die but don't want the rest of the run spoiled so they can try again, do they get escorted out? can they present their TEs to get tokens?


Its been my understanding that yes they would indeed get treasure pulls and participation if they can show the TEs.

valetutto wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Horrible idea.
I get five friends, if I have that many, and as we leave the coaching room I send them off to the "restroom" with a "meet me in two hours in the epilogue room."

They come back crying "we missed the dungeon, the lines were too long, but we still at least get our loot, right?"

'Hey, you cant come in here! Only players leaving the dungeon and volunteers are allowed...oh, you missed your start time? Sorry, treasure can only be given to players who carried TE through the dungeon. Maybe an AC can help get you into a later run?'

It does beg the question, if a player has to leave to bathroom break, they get escorted out, do they end up at the epilogue room and are they allowed to get their tokens? (sure present your TEs) but is it allowed?

What about characters that die but don't want the rest of the run spoiled so they can try again, do they get escorted out? can they present their TEs to get tokens?


Its been my understanding that yes they would indeed get treasure pulls and participation if they can show the TEs.

And if there are no later runs?

Or, we'll set up as naked 4th levels running Nightmare and take lots of combat/puzzle fail/ push damage to TPK by room 2. Time to grab our loot!

Remember, we manage our own hit points... I assure you, we are all dead.

I'm not trying to circumvent all the anti-farming rules you can come up with. I'm trying to convince you it's absurdly easy to do so, and so long as farming is crazy profitable, there are people who will do it.

Regarding Raven's post about newbies, I have to agree. Between the past two GenCons I have introduced 24 new people to TrueDungeon and no (or reduced) cost (and most of the ones I have kept up with have since played again). I have not ghosted 24 slots if you exclude the full run I bought at WYC because its start time had passed and it had all 10 tickets availabel.

So I guarantee you that my ability to collect treasure for the full party of 10 has led to more new players, not fewer, enjoying TD. But I don't do runs just for treasure. I'm not saying that's proof, just anecdotal evidence that ghosting doesn't always hurt new players.

Raven wrote:

Rob F wrote: This has been a very interesting thread.

Indeed.

What concerns me most is that there's always a chance, no matter how small, that the ghosted ticket just boxed out a truly awesome new player from a truly awesome experience.

There is that small chance, yes.

But know what has an even bigger chance of boxing out some potential awesome newbie? The Price tag on the event.

True Dungeon is prohibitively expensive for most gamers. Ask any random gamer at GenCon who hasn't done TD, and they'll probably say, "I'd love to go on a run, but it's out of my price range" or "I've heard good and bad about it, and I'd like to try... but I don't want to spend that much in case the people who say It's over-rated are right."

Thing is, TD can't really lower the price tag much, while renting huge halls like Lucas Oil or the Convention Center. In fact, it's token sales which help to offset the price of the event, and pay for cool animatronic props and awesome scene dressing, and those fantastic NPC costumes. So when it comes down to it: Encouraging token sales helps offset the cost for New Players.

Know what else would offset the cost for newbies? Allowing someone with 10 CoA's to sponsor a run, where they get the bonus Treasure but the New Player gets the experience for FREE! Unfortunately... it looks like that's not the direction things are going

Kirk Bauer wrote: Regarding Raven's post about newbies, I have to agree. Between the past two GenCons I have introduced 24 new people to TrueDungeon and no (or reduced) cost (and most of the ones I have kept up with have since played again). I have not ghosted 24 slots if you exclude the full run I bought at WYC because its start time had passed and it had all 10 tickets availabel.

So I guarantee you that my ability to collect treasure for the full party of 10 has led to more new players, not fewer, enjoying TD. But I don't do runs just for treasure. I'm not saying that's proof, just anecdotal evidence that ghosting doesn't always hurt new players.

My personal hosting runs brought Cenobian Kai into the game and he jumps on the token bandwagon when $$ permits.

It's a positive effect for the game when it's allowed to happen. Most of my crew only plays because I cover their cost and I can generally do that because of the treasure offsetting some of it

I agree with what raven said earlier....a ghosted run would be a perfect chance to invite new players to try out the dungeon.....maybe if it was still allowed to ghost but only if a new or newish player was allowed to make the run and possibly allow them to keep the 10 pack and three guaranteed treasure tokens. This allows the owner to equip the ghost with treasure enhancing tokens while allowing the ghost to play and have fun.

Harlax wrote: Let's take TDC as an interesting example. Limits were put on ghosting. The price was so low that there was significant concern expressed about farming. There were only 58 runs. The place was crawling with serious players and collectors

If the Tabletop site numbers are reliable there were 15 runs with unsold slots. 6 of which had 5 or more spots open. 2 had all 10 spots unsold.

There were also a tiny number of players compared to Origins.

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let's take TDC as an interesting example. Limits were put on ghosting. The price was so low that there was significant concern expressed about farming. There were only 58 runs. The place was crawling with serious players and collectors

If the Tabletop site numbers are reliable there were 15 runs with unsold slots. 6 of which had 5 or more spots open. 2 had all 10 spots unsold.

There were also a tiny number of players compared to Origins.

Plus the vast majority of those tickets not sold were during the Patron event. I count 45 unsold tickets during the Patron event. I count only 14 not during the Patron event and 10 of those are all 1 slot. I don't recall those being available a couple weeks before the event, so I am guessing those were from unfortunate cancellations.