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TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #1

This has been a major topic of discussion in the TE Token thread, so I thought I'd break it out so it could have a dedicated thread for us to collect our thoughts on it for Jeff to consider.

My thoughts are that Ghosting at GENCON should follow the same rules it followed at TDC. It should be allowed, but the Ghost players shouldn't get any treasure coins.

That would do a couple of things. It would prevent people from buying multiple runs just to do token farming (at 180 treasure coins per run). A bunch of ghost runs getting 180 tokens per run would increase the total number of tokens pulled and increase the chance Jeff will have to do something more drastic like diluting the treasure boxes.

It would also free up tickets for actual players. I'm guessing True Dungeon will be another quick sellout at GENCON. Every ticket used for ghosting is a ticket an actual person can't use.
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #2

Here we go again.

We could have avoided this issue completely by not printing ISSN. So this is on all you people who said unlimited loot caps was good for the game.

Changing the rules this drastically after after years of people accumulating TEs is dirty pool.

But if you define "ghost" as a person for whom you pay, real or imaginary, then fine. So you and your group of mules get 19 chips total.

But it isn't fair to help create a problem, and then propose a rule to which you are immune to try to fix it.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #3

From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.
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You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #4

Harlax wrote: From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.


Why not then set a max number of ghosts a party can have? (I'm thinking more of a fixed number vs 1 extra ghost per player.)
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #5

Joshua Long wrote:

Harlax wrote: From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.


Why not then set a max number of ghosts a party can have? (I'm thinking more of a fixed number vs 1 extra ghost per player.)


Change that to "ghosts/mules," and sure.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #6

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Harlax wrote: From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.


Why not then set a max number of ghosts a party can have? (I'm thinking more of a fixed number vs 1 extra ghost per player.)


Change that to "ghosts/mules," and sure.


I think the ruling on having everyone carry their own TE tokens is already an attempt to close the "mule" loophole. This would address the other loophole, which is ghosting.
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #7

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Harlax wrote: From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.


Why not then set a max number of ghosts a party can have? (I'm thinking more of a fixed number vs 1 extra ghost per player.)


Change that to "ghosts/mules," and sure.


I think the ruling on having everyone carry their own TE tokens is already an attempt to close the "mule" loophole. This would address the other loophole, which is ghosting.


If a mule is someone for whom you pay their ticket in exchange for their loot, then no, it doesn't address it at all.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #8

Brad Mortensen wrote: Here we go again.

We could have avoided this issue completely by not printing ISSN. So this is on all you people who said unlimited loot caps was good for the game.

Changing the rules this drastically after after years of people accumulating TEs is dirty pool.

But if you define "ghost" as a person for whom you pay, real or imaginary, then fine. So you and your group of mules get 19 chips total.

But it isn't fair to help create a problem, and then propose a rule to which you are immune to try to fix it.



I've been staunching against new Treasure Enhancers ever since around the time the Ring of Riches was proposed.

It's "dirty pool" but no different than all the issues with reprints/pseudo-reprints of the Horn of Plenty, followed by its eclipsing with the Charm of Avarice.

It's not any worse than changing the rules for swapping out all slots (e.g. rings, amulets, armor) after year of people accumulating tokens, many of which were cornercase and only intended for swapping.
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #9

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Harlax wrote: From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.


Why not then set a max number of ghosts a party can have? (I'm thinking more of a fixed number vs 1 extra ghost per player.)


Change that to "ghosts/mules," and sure.


I think the ruling on having everyone carry their own TE tokens is already an attempt to close the "mule" loophole. This would address the other loophole, which is ghosting.


If a mule is someone for whom you pay their ticket in exchange for their loot, then no, it doesn't address it at all.


Brad, I'm genuinely curious, how would you propose Jeff restrict token loaning more than he already has, in an enforceable way. The only way I can think of is to individually number each TE token, and have them registered to a single person. And I'm not sure that's logistically feasible. It's easy to address ghosting, it was done effectively at TDC.
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #10

It is tough to set a rule that would not penalize the odd person that does not make it due to illness or something out of their control. If the ticket/s are in hand, the party should be allowed to equip synergistic tokens on the 'ghosts'. Claiming more than the starter pack and three chips is where it starts to get a little slippery. I trust that Jeff will do the best thing for the game and await any possible official statement.
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #11

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Harlax wrote: From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.


Why not then set a max number of ghosts a party can have? (I'm thinking more of a fixed number vs 1 extra ghost per player.)


Change that to "ghosts/mules," and sure.


I think the ruling on having everyone carry their own TE tokens is already an attempt to close the "mule" loophole. This would address the other loophole, which is ghosting.


If a mule is someone for whom you pay their ticket in exchange for their loot, then no, it doesn't address it at all.


Brad, I'm genuinely curious, how would you propose Jeff restrict token loaning more than he already has, in an enforceable way. The only way I can think of is to individually number each TE token, and have them registered to a single person. And I'm not sure that's logistically feasible. It's easy to address ghosting, it was done effectively at TDC.


I can't propose a solution, other than the half-dozen I already have over the years, because Jeff hasn't articulated exactly what his concerns are. And you will oppose every one of them, as you always have, unless they have zero impact on you, so why put both of us, and everybody else, through that again?

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON? 6 years 10 months ago #12

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Harlax wrote: From time to time a player doesn't show up. I've had it happen a few times, even in prearragnged groups. So the group gets penalized because you can't have full COA/CoGF, or you get a player who doesn't want the difficulty level everyone else wants, or you get a player that is woefully underequipped for the run. None of those is good.


Why not then set a max number of ghosts a party can have? (I'm thinking more of a fixed number vs 1 extra ghost per player.)


Change that to "ghosts/mules," and sure.


I think the ruling on having everyone carry their own TE tokens is already an attempt to close the "mule" loophole. This would address the other loophole, which is ghosting.


If a mule is someone for whom you pay their ticket in exchange for their loot, then no, it doesn't address it at all.


Brad, I'm genuinely curious, how would you propose Jeff restrict token loaning more than he already has, in an enforceable way. The only way I can think of is to individually number each TE token, and have them registered to a single person. And I'm not sure that's logistically feasible. It's easy to address ghosting, it was done effectively at TDC.


I can't propose a solution, other than the half-dozen I already have over the years, because Jeff hasn't articulated exactly what his concerns are. And you will oppose every one of them, as you always have, unless they have zero impact on you, so why put both of us, and everybody else, through that again?


Brad, these rules have significant impact on me. We had a couple of open spots on our TDC runs, I'd have been happy to make them Ghost runs if it were allowed and collect the Treasure pulls. The same thing could happen at GENCON. Plus, the new rules on everyone carrying their own TE Tokens will make me distribute and collect over $10,000 worth of tokens, which has me VERY worried that one of my friends will lose one during the adventure or in the epilogue room. I'd MUCH rather keep them safely in the binder. I'm fairly certain that there will be some TE tokens lost at GENCON, I hope mine aren't some of them.

But, I can see it's just not constructive to discuss this topic with you, as you seem to have a lot of anger about the topic, and make the discussions personal. I'll respect your views on it, but probably won't reply again on these threads.
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