TOPIC: Shirt of the Fae vs. Druid's Wild Vestments

MasterED wrote:

valetutto wrote: The way I saw it before, the shirt did away with all the weird polymorph restrictions. To me that meant your gear was accessible, but maybe only I interpreted it that way. I thought no restrictions was pretty clear. LOL Not being able to use your gear I find fairly restrictive.

I concur that is what I understood if you had the Druid Wild Vestments. Good question to get a final ruling on.

Ed

This was what I thought originally, hence the reason I asked my initial question. It seemed like the shirt was more restrictive than the vestments in that regards.

Fiddy wrote:

MasterED wrote:

valetutto wrote: The way I saw it before, the shirt did away with all the weird polymorph restrictions. To me that meant your gear was accessible, but maybe only I interpreted it that way. I thought no restrictions was pretty clear. LOL Not being able to use your gear I find fairly restrictive.

I concur that is what I understood if you had the Druid Wild Vestments. Good question to get a final ruling on.

Ed

This was what I thought originally, hence the reason I asked my initial question. It seemed like the shirt was more restrictive than the vestments in that regards.

I would certainly hope that we wouldn't nerf a 2011 token just because a similar one was printed but instead the 2017 would provide the same power. Now it could be that the 2017 is weaker in Polymorph and stronger by adding the free action potion drink.

Let see what the TPTB say.

Ed

I'm somewhat confused / disappointed here too - as I had intended to use Shirt of the Fae in my Wizard build and now I'm not sure what happens:

1. Do I still get bonuses from Rings of Focus, Staff/Baton of Focus, Etc. of Focus while polymorphed?

2. What about Earcuff of Inspiration?

3. Can I use Earcuff of Energy, Carter's Tome of Insight, Mad Evoker's Charm, Cabal Set, Ring of Spell Storing, +2 Staff of Power while polymorphed?

4. Pouch of Tulz, Lamp of the Marid, Druegar's Death Die, etc?

Was the restriction to spells from the character card discussed during design? I got one of these on the incorrect belief I could use it with Goggles of Sage Speed and scrolls or Medallion of Mystic Mouth and Wands. That's a bummer - and it cuts down on consumable use which I thought we were all for.

I went to go see what the DM guide says about polymorph but could not find anything useful. Nothing in the coach's guide either. I think it was in the player's guide that no longer exists.


Per the tokendb however:

Characters cannot use spells or any physical items while polymorphed. They do, however, retain their initial Armor Class, Hit Points, and any combat bonuses or penalties recorded on the party card. When polymorphed, melee stats are used to calculate combat modifiers. This token is used in the combat slider for attacks.

not certain if combat bonus include spell bonuses.

I think the answer to Matt's are:

1. Depends on what a combat bonus is.

2. I am guessing no.

3. No.

4. No. Though you I think you can dissolve polymorph instantaneously so you might be able to use death die you would just lose your polymorph.

I don't know that this is correct just my stab at it based on the tokendb entry.

Per Jeff:
When you polymorph, all your items become part of you. Things that you would have to take time to manipulate can't be used. However, ongoing effects as well as effects that do not require a Standard Action or a Free Action to activate may be used. E.g., you would keep a Focus effect from a Staffton of Focus, but you couldn't attack with it.

If you're wondering, "Can I use X when I'm polymorphed?", check to see if using that effect* requires either a Standard or Free Action.

• Cast a spell from class card: Yes, but ONLY while wearing a polymorph shirt
• Melee attack using the creature's natural attack form: Yes, even without a polymorph shirt (that's kind of the point of polymorphing)
• Talk: Yes, but ONLY while wearing a polymorph shirt
• Weapon attack: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item requiring a Free Action to activate: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item requiring a Standard Action to activate: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item that requires no action to activate: Yes, even without a polymorph shirt

*Note: Some tokens have both permanent and activatable effects. So like in the case of the Focus weapon, some effects on a given token may be polmorph-compatible and some may not. The use/can't use is determined by the effect, not the item.

Druegar wrote: Per Jeff:
When you polymorph, all your items become part of you. Things that you would have to take time to manipulate can't be used. However, ongoing effects as well as effects that do not require a Standard Action or a Free Action to activate may be used. E.g., you would keep a Focus effect from a Staffton of Focus, but you couldn't attack with it.

If you're wondering, "Can I use X when I'm polymorphed?", check to see if using that effect* requires either a Standard or Free Action.

• Cast a spell from class card: Yes, but ONLY while wearing a polymorph shirt
• Melee attack using the creature's natural attack form: Yes, even without a polymorph shirt (that's kind of the point of polymorphing)
• Talk: Yes, but ONLY while wearing a polymorph shirt
• Weapon attack: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item requiring a Free Action to activate: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item requiring a Standard Action to activate: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item that requires no action to activate: Yes, even without a polymorph shirt

*Note: Some tokens have both permanent and activatable effects. So like in the case of the Focus weapon, some effects on a given token may be polmorph-compatible and some may not. The use/can't use is determined by the effect, not the item.

And you are saying that the Druid Wild Vestments were supposed to be ruled as listed above. For example, you can't drink healing potions. I can say first hand it was never ruled that way (likely because of the "no restrictions" line) not that means anything.

Unless I am misunderstanding the following things would not be possible while polymorphed (with a shirt):

• Attacking at ranged (unless the polymorphed creature had a ranged attack which I don't think has happened yet)
• Bowl of Spirit Sight
• Carter's Tome of Insight
• Use any Wands
• Pouch of Tulz
• Shield of Scholar (no scrolls anyways)
• Ring of Spell Storing
• Not a comprehensive list just for reference

MasterED wrote: And you are saying that the Druid Wild Vestments were supposed to be ruled as listed above.

I made no mention of how things should have been ruled. Per Jeff, this is how Druid’s Wild Vestments & Shirt of the Fae (and polymorphing in general) are to be handled from here on out.

Druegar wrote: Things that you would have to take time to manipulate can't be used. However, ongoing effects as well as effects that do not require a Standard Action or a Free Action to activate may be used.

So based on those criteria, you tell me:

1. Does making a ranged weapon attack require either a SA or FA?
2. Does Bowl of Spirit Sight require a SA or FA ?
3. Does Carter's Tome of Insight require a SA or FA ?
4. Do wands require a SA or FA ?
5. Does Pouch of Tulz require a SA or FA ?
6. Does Shield of the Scholar require a SA or FA ?
   There may be additional reasons why SotS can or cannot be used while polymorphed. How many can you name?
7. Does Ring of Spell Storing require an SA or FA ?

Druegar wrote:

MasterED wrote: And you are saying that the Druid Wild Vestments were supposed to be ruled as listed above.

I made no mention of how things should have been ruled. Per Jeff, this is how Druid’s Wild Vestments & Shirt of the Fae (and polymorphing in general) are to be handled from here on out.

Druegar wrote: Things that you would have to take time to manipulate can't be used. However, ongoing effects as well as effects that do not require a Standard Action or a Free Action to activate may be used.

So based on those criteria, you tell me:

1. Does making a ranged weapon attack require either a SA or FA?
2. Does Bowl of Spirit Sight require a SA or FA ?
3. Does Carter's Tome of Insight require a SA or FA ?
4. Do wands require a SA or FA ?
5. Does Pouch of Tulz require a SA or FA ?
6. Does Shield of the Scholar require a SA or FA ?
   There may be additional reasons why SotS can or cannot be used while polymorphed. How many can you name?
7. Does Ring of Spell Storing require an SA or FA ?

So they weren't questions - but hopefully your example will help others.

Druegar wrote: Per Jeff:
When you polymorph, all your items become part of you. Things that you would have to take time to manipulate can't be used. However, ongoing effects as well as effects that do not require a Standard Action or a Free Action to activate may be used. E.g., you would keep a Focus effect from a Staffton of Focus, but you couldn't attack with it.

If you're wondering, "Can I use X when I'm polymorphed?", check to see if using that effect* requires either a Standard or Free Action.

• Cast a spell from class card: Yes, but ONLY while wearing a polymorph shirt
• Melee attack using the creature's natural attack form: Yes, even without a polymorph shirt (that's kind of the point of polymorphing)
• Talk: Yes, but ONLY while wearing a polymorph shirt
• Weapon attack: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item requiring a Free Action to activate: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item requiring a Standard Action to activate: No, not even with a polymorph shirt
• Use item that requires no action to activate: Yes, even without a polymorph shirt

*Note: Some tokens have both permanent and activatable effects. So like in the case of the Focus weapon, some effects on a given token may be polmorph-compatible and some may not. The use/can't use is determined by the effect, not the item.

This is a good explanation. Especially for newbies. It would be nice if this were added to the appropriate Tokens (poly potions, vestments, coronet, etc.) In the Tokendb. But maybe it has. Can't tell because spinners are spinning. 8:15am, Android phone.

Ouch large nerf for the shirt from how it was being played to now.
It used to override those exceptions.

I'm going to try and talk Jeff into a change at TDC

Rob F wrote: It would be nice if this were added to the appropriate Tokens (poly potions, vestments, coronet, etc.) In the Tokendb.

It will be. I'm just waiting for the dust to settle and wording to cement before I make significant edits to dozens of tokens.
Because lazy.

Druegar wrote:

Rob F wrote: It would be nice if this were added to the appropriate Tokens (poly potions, vestments, coronet, etc.) In the Tokendb.

It will be. I'm just waiting for the dust to settle and wording to cement before I make significant edits to dozens of tokens.
Because lazy.

You call it lazy, I call it being intelligent, my calls it being lazy two...maybe you two are on to something.