TOPIC: Casting Conundrums

A place to chat about casting.

From elsewhere:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote: The baton is a one handed item.

See the other thread on spellcasting and handed items. - you can't be holding stuff in your hand while spellcasting except Focus weapons and shields.

Presently you can't hold a Brawler's Mug, Orb of Might, Bottle of Bubbles, or anything else in your hands other than a shield or a focus weapon if you want to cast spells.

Maybe the rules will be changed so you can hold an Orb of Might - they were for Shields after the initial announcement.

OK, so the mistake I'm about to make is to apply logic to magic...

A cleric can cast while holding a large shield but not an orb. Or a mug. At least they can't hold a tower shield.

I don't have a stake in this in any case, my cleric build can get there with the 3 piece Eldritch bonus. Or a Ring or a Charm.

I should clarify that you can hold whatever you would be able to hold otherwise while not casting spells.

And you can drop set items in order to cast spells.

It's just that if you start a round holding a Baton of Focus and an Orb of Might you can't use Lenses of Divine Sight that turn, as you would need to spend your free action to drop the Orb so you could cast spells.

I guess what confused me is we've said that "casting" isn't a mode, and therefore there are only melee and ranged modes.

And I assumed that, if I'm casting in melee mode then, per the set rules, I'm forbidden to drop the Orb. But I guess that logic would mean I couldn't drop the Scepter either, so I could never cast spells.

But it seems like an Orb should be less encumbering than a shield. Whatever.

So I'm glad we had this little talk.

Was also confused about "shield" and what is commonly called "shield hand," but:

1. It's technically called "offhand" because of mugs and orbs and whatnot.

2. Set rule says the weapon is locked if you are "engaged in combat." It doesn't mention "combat mode."

3. Can't find the updated Players Guide, maybe it isn't out yet, but the 2012 PG page 38 refers to Turn Undead as "casting a spell," even though it's (also?) an ability. Is that a typo? If not, I have many more questions, all "(Token) of Focus"- related.

From the be DMG, it sounds like you have to be in that configuration we refuse to call "casting mode" to turn undead, (need free hand, can have shield but apparently not Orb or Mug) but a focus weapon may or may not be allowed while turning. Actually the rule seems to say you can use any one-handed weapon if your off-hand is empty or holding shield.

So does that mean that if a Wizard is wielding a two handed staff, they have to take a free action to unwield it before they can cast a spell?

PREFACE:

Brad, I'm piggy-backing off your post above. BUT! I'm commenting off all the stuff quoted by a few. There is so many quoted stuff that I can't figure out who is saying what.

Also, I know TD is only loosely based off D&D. My comments to come should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

It was mentioned that an Orb of Might is less cumbersome than a shield. Yes, I'll agree it is lighter. But, it is more cumbersome because a person has to continually hold/grasp it. A shield isn't. I'll explain that using a universally recognized example-- Captain America.

Cap's shield, like nearly all shields, has hand and arm straps. Cap has been able to use both his hands at once while simply having his shield strapped to his forearm. Obviously, it does not offer the most efficient protection, but it still offers protection. So, if Cap was a spell-user he could still cast spells while holding a shield; both his hands are free to gesticulate the complex magical gestures needed to get off a spell.

Unlike moronic video games, casting spells (and using a Jedi Mind Trick) require complex finger manipulations to weave the magical energy spell casters tap into to create the desired spell. So, with that in mind, one cannot move their fingers artistically while holding an item like an orb or a weapon or some such. The exemption being Focus items. They are an exemption because, one would reason, the Focus items themselves are taking place of the fingers and using their own powers to "focus" and manipulate the magical energies for casting spells.

This makes logical and common sense. When people try and Rule's Lawyer all they do is make the game less enjoyable. Unless, of course, the like and enjoy being a Grayson.

Now, I'll comment quickly on a Cleric turning an undead or Negative Material Plane creature/being...

A Cleric turns by firmly holding their Holy Symbol in front of them in a commanding manner. The turning only requires the Holy Symbol, a forceful gesture, and maybe a commanding voice. Therefore, turning can be accomplished while holding the aforementioned Holy Symbol. Yes, I know this is from D&D and TD is only loosely based on D&D. But, it makes the most sense without Rules Lawyering it to death.

I'm also assuming- logically- turning is an ability and not a spell. If the GM or Player's Guide says differently, I'll bet that gets corrected soon.

I just want to be sure this is how it works now:

Given cleric with Orb and Baton:

free action - swap Baton for Holy Symbol, turn undead

Next turn: free action to swap Baton, cast heal spell choose second target with Goggles

If so, then as long as the undead are there when combat starts (unlike Sea Lich) then it's:

Start combat with hands empty. Turn undead. Free action to switch to melee mode

(If you use a shield, it's: start in melee mode. Turn undead. Use free action for... whatever.)

Next turn: cast heal. Free action to choose second target with Goggles

The justification is irrelevant to me. I'm just trying to be sure I understand. It seems like every week I have to go back and reconsider my entire build because of a new (or newly clarified) rule. What doesn't change is that I need all the to-hit bonuses I can get, which is a big reason for the Orb. I don't care about AC.

We have to hold the Holy Symbol? I thought it was just something on your personage because it is slotless, like a lapel pin.



You definitely do not need to be holding a holy symbol to turn though since you can turn without one. It is just a question if you get a bonus without holding it.

Ro-gan wrote: Orb of Might {snip} is more cumbersome because a person has to continually hold/grasp it. A shield isn't.

casting spells (and using a Jedi Mind Trick) require complex finger manipulations to weave the magical energy spell casters tap into to create the desired spell. So, with that in mind, one cannot move their fingers artistically while holding an item like an orb or a weapon or some such.

A Cleric turns by firmly holding their Holy Symbol in front of them in a commanding manner. The turning only requires the Holy Symbol, a forceful gesture, and maybe a commanding voice. Therefore, turning can be accomplished while holding the aforementioned Holy Symbol.

QFT
Yaass to all that!!!

Ro-gan wrote: I'm also assuming- logically- turning is an ability and not a spell.

On the cleric class card, Turning is listed under the Special Powers section, not Spells. Ergo, it's a Special Power, not a Spell.

Druegar wrote:

Ro-gan wrote: Orb of Might {snip} is more cumbersome because a person has to continually hold/grasp it. A shield isn't.

casting spells (and using a Jedi Mind Trick) require complex finger manipulations to weave the magical energy spell casters tap into to create the desired spell. So, with that in mind, one cannot move their fingers artistically while holding an item like an orb or a weapon or some such.

A Cleric turns by firmly holding their Holy Symbol in front of them in a commanding manner. The turning only requires the Holy Symbol, a forceful gesture, and maybe a commanding voice. Therefore, turning can be accomplished while holding the aforementioned Holy Symbol.

QFT
Yaass to all that!!!

Ro-gan wrote: I'm also assuming- logically- turning is an ability and not a spell.

On the cleric class card, Turning is listed under the Special Powers section, not Spells. Ergo, it's a Special Power, not a Spell.

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No cookie, or brownie and a glass of hot chocolate??

jedibcg wrote: We have to hold the Holy Symbol?

When actively Turning, yes.

jedibcg wrote: You definitely do not need to be holding a holy symbol to turn though since you can turn without one.

Incorrect
All clerics have a basic holy symbol. We assume some level of basic gear, just like:

• all bards have a basic lute
• all classes's naughty bits were covered before the 2016 "invention" of pants
• a tokenless player's character is not literally naked

Ro-gan wrote: No cookie, or brownie and a glass of hot chocolate??

Sorry for the delay. I was waiting for them to come out of the oven.
Please enjoy a brownie, but be careful, they're still a little hot.

jedibcg wrote: We have to hold the Holy Symbol? I thought it was just something on your personage because it is slotless, like a lapel pin.



You definitely do not need to be holding a holy symbol to turn though since you can turn without one. It is just a question if you get a bonus without holding it.

That's not what he played guide says. Clerics have a generic virtual holy symbol, like bards have a virtual default instrument.

And as I pointed out, the player guide specifically says turning undead is a spell, ergo it's both a spell and an ability, pending a rule change

Druegar wrote:

jedibcg wrote: We have to hold the Holy Symbol?

When actively Turning, yes.

jedibcg wrote: You definitely do not need to be holding a holy symbol to turn though since you can turn without one.

Incorrect
All clerics have a basic holy symbol. We assume some level of basic gear, just like:

• all bards have a basic lute
• all classes's naughty bits were covered before the 2016 "invention" of pants
• a tokenless player's character is not literally naked

Nope. My characters over the years before pants Tokens were going commando below the waist and above the feet.