The other thread is getting quite crowded and with a steadily clicking clock, I thought I'd create a separate thread. It's taken some time for me to best articulate why I think the Amulet Crown is problematic:


[First Order Effects]


#1. Giving up the head slot isn't actually a big sacrifice

The main argument that the Amulet Crown is balanced, seems to be that the player is giving up some Might sets. But this makes several major assumptions: namely that players with the Amulet Crown have a lot of Ultra Rares (and have a large enough collection for a 3-piece or 5-piece set). Many players don't have a ridiculous number of ultra-rares, in which case giving up the head slot is really an easy decision.

Let's look at the head items:

Great Helm / Cassis / Elven Coif / Triton Helm
Helm of Clear Thought
Helm of the Boar
Helm of the Eagle

Only the Barbarian / Cleric / Fighter / Paladin are actually giving up something substantial (+1 AC) in most cases.


Cap of the Owl
Catspaw Hat
Hat of Escape


Any class can use these but none of them are particularly impressive.


Mithral Cap
Dragonscale Helm
Helm of Retribution


*If* you have one of these Ultra-Rares, then the Bard (Mithral Cap), Druid (Dragonscale Helm), or Ranger (Mithral Cap or Helm of Retribution) is actually giving up something.


Crown of Might
Hat of Healing

Hat of Healing is quite weak. Crown of Might is the best argument but that's only if you have that particular Ultra Rare.


Circlet of Elemental Mastery
Coronet of the Arch-Druid

You can always put on the Coronet later on in the dungeon when you need it, so no loss there. Circlet of Elemental Mastery is trickier because it's a nice effect for the Wizard. But honestly, it often isn't needed in a dungeon and at most, it'll help with one, maybe two spells. So it's not as helpful as most Amulets would otherwise be.



For 6 of the 10 classes, giving up the Head slot is trivial if you don't have any Ultra-Rares. For the other 4 classes, giving up the Head slot can still give you a net 1 or 2 AC bump if you use the Torc of Natural Armor or Oakskin Medallion.

Even if you have Ultra-Rares, the AC from Torc / Oakskin is still better than the AC you could get otherwise (for the Bard, Monk, Rogue, Wizard). If you want to go with a different Amulet, it's still an easy decision.

Even the remaining classes (Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger) can get a slight bump by going with the +3 AC Oakskin. Giving up the headslot for a non-AC amulet (Horn of Plenty, Amulet of Wonder) is a slightly bigger tradeoff since they lose a +2 AC Helm.

The Crown of Might may be a legitimate argument for all classes but I think most amulets are probably more helpful. Plus, if you want to get technical, the Necklace of the Oak is actually superior to the Crown of Might. It gives the same bonuses to melee weapons, plus it helps with Mighty ranged weapons as well.



#2. Set bonuses aren't a significant problem

Mithral set is a non-issue. The 3-piece set is conditional (breath weapons. How often do we see that?) and the 5-piece set is conditional (anti-undead bane. You can easily miss this). You can still make the Mithral 3-piece set pretty easily with Armor / Gauntlets / Boots, and possibly Sword. So giving up the Mithral Cap is quite easy.

The 3-piece Might set is easily achievable without the Crown. In fact, it looks like most players are going with the Scepter / Girdle / Boots approach. It only becomes a sacrifice if you're going for the 5-piece set (which requires 5 Ultra-Rares and involves only a small portion of players).

The Dragonscale set has less flexibility so you are giving up 8 points worth of fire reduction (10 - 2 = 8). That might be harder in some cases. But if you know the dungeon has little to no fire (you know which monsters you will face or say, a certain underwater adventure?) then it's not much of a trade off at all.



#3. Amulet choices are strong

The following are non-issues because they're relatively corner-case are limited in power:

Amulet of Mugwort

Necklace of the Elm
Necklace of the Bay

Amulet of Thorns
+1 Amulet of Armor
Necklace of the Ash
Harpy Claw Amulet
Necklace of the Oak
Scarab Amulet thingy

Hand of Glory (amulets are generally better than rings)
Necklace of Fireballs

Periapt of Proof Against Poison



The cases where the Amulets are extremely powerful are:

Amulet of Wonder
Horn of Plenty

Medallion of Greyhawk
Dragon Tooth Amulet

Torc of Natural Armor
Barkskin Medallion

HoP and AoW have traditionally been viewed as the most powerful tokens in the game.

Torc and Barksin contribute to AC creep (especially when you can combine them)

Greyhawk and Dragon Tooth can be actually quite good - protecting you from a wide variety of effects.

[Second Order Effects]


#4. Significant AC Creep occurs

One of the biggest problems with the Amulet Crown is that it contributes significantly to AC creep.

This year we already have the Ring of Protection +2 (which is balanced), the Oakskin Medallion (a last minute addition), and the Mithral Boots, which already increase the max AC for all classes, by +3.

Looking at it class by class, the Wizard gets an additional bump of 2 with the Robes of the Arch-Mage. And the Rogue (likely) gets an additional 1 from the Mithral Boots (since he probably has odd Dexterity).

So right now, the changes to max AC are:

+5 - Wizard
+4 - Rogue
+3 - Barbarian / Bard / Cleric / Druid / Fighter / Monk / Paladin / Ranger


The Amulet Crown significantly distorts max AC since it allows the use of the Torc of Natural Armor with the Oakskin Medallion.

The Barbarian / Cleric / Druid / Fighter / Paladin / Ranger, can already get +2 AC with the head slot (Dragonscale Helm or Helm of Retribution). But not everyone has the requisite tokens, so it does actually help some players reach maximum AC for these classes.

The Bard closes the gap by +1 AC (Torc beats Mithral Cap by +1 AC).

The Monk, Rogue, and Wizard currently cannot get AC from their helm. But with the Amulet Crown, they essentially have a +2 AC Helm.

So now, the overall max AC will change by:

+7 - Wizard
+6 - Rogue
+5 - Monk
+4 - Bard
+3 - Barbarian / Cleric / Druid / Fighter / Paladin / Ranger


This is an incredibly amount of AC creep, especially for the Wizard and Rogue.

In fact, I would imagine that the Cleric / Fighter / Paladin players would be up in arms, since this essentially makes the AC benefits of those classes significantly weaker (since everyone now has a +2 Helm).

I think it's gonna get kind of silly (and unbalanced) when the Wizard begins to get an AC comparable to the Armored classes. Between the Robes of the Arch-Mage (+4 AC) and the Cloak of the Mage (+3 AC), Wizards are essentially wearing Half Plate (7 AC) and now they have the +2 AC Helmet (Amulet Crown).

The current max AC list, IIRC, is:

BARBAR: 28
BARD: 27
CLERIC: 30
DRUID: 32
FIGHTER: 31
MONK: 26
PALADIN: 32
RANGER: 27
ROGUE: 25
WIZARD: 21


After this, it will be:

BARBAR: 31
BARD: 31
CLERIC: 33
DRUID: 35
FIGHTER: 34
MONK: 31
PALADIN: 35
RANGER: 30
ROGUE: 31
WIZARD: 28

It seems kind of bland if all the classes are beginning to have near-identical max AC's.





#5. All Current Amulets (except AoW) become Stronger

Except for the AoW, all amulets have their abilities set. The challenge is always the opportunity cost for the heavily crowded neck slot. The existence of the Amulet Crown actually strengthens all current amulets (and amulets tend to be more powerful than equivalent items in other slots) because it provides greater flexibility and decreases the opportunity cost (you have the option of getting an additional neck slot).


#6. AoW becomes Weaker

The Amulet of Wonder is the one case where it will likely get *weaker* because the effect changes year by year. In future years, Jeff will always have to consider that the Amulet of Wonder can be combined with other powerful amulets. Thus the Wonder effect will likely be less cool than it could otherwise be.

Jeff also mentioned that next year won't have a die roll with a Double HoP. But that's looking at just next year. Once the Amulet Crown is in print, this will create an issue in all future years. (Every future year will have to consider combining the AoW with other amulets like the HoP). If anything, this means that the AoW can *never* have a Double HoP effect, otherwise it can be combined with the HoP. I suppose you could make a ruling that the HoP doesn't stack with the AoW, but then you have people point out that they do stack with the Ring of Riches so why the disparity (especially since you need 3 UR's to use both the AoW and HoP).


#7. Future Amulets will be Weaker

With the Amulet Crown in mind, future amulets will likely be weaker, limiting our options.


#8. Power Creep will Occur in Other Slots

Amulets have traditionally been stronger than other slotted items (see Torc of Natural Armor vs Ring of Protection) and the main argument has always been that the neck slot is more valuable. That argument is completely undermined by the Amulet Crown.

As a result, it's likely that other items will start to use Amulets as the baseline, resulting in a steady power creep.

I agree with everything you just said, and feel that this will be an incredibly unbalancing item. 

Just allowing someone to use two of the following is unbalancing:  AoW, HoP, Medallion of Greyhawk, Dragontooth Amulet.  The argument all along for allowing the amulet slot to be so powerful is that they were competing against each other.  Now that you will be able to use two at once, it is MASSIVE Power Creep.

As you said, very few classes will have to sacrifice anything to use this.  The only class that is really sacrificing anything is the Druid Class with the Dragonscale Set.  For all other classes, it is a VERY easy choice to use this over any other head-slot item. 

Plus - one of the advantages the Combat Classes have had over the non-Combat classes is that they have better AC Helms.  I remember the Crown of Might was changed from giving AC because nobody wanted the Wizard to have a crown that was the equivalent of an Ultra-Rare AC helmet.  If the Tulz Crown is printed, that is in essence allowing every class to have a 3 AC Helm, which greatly weakens the Combat Classes by letting the non-combat classes catch up to them in one of the only areas they had an advantage in - AC. 

Jeff said when he developed the +1 Tower Shield that he did it because the Fighter classes need an AC boost to stay ahead of the other classes.  The Tulz Crown completely undoes that advantage. 

I think that printing this token is a HUGE mistake, and it completely throws off the overall balance of the game and the balance between the Fighter classes and non-Fighter Classes. 

I also think that Jeff is on the path to making purped out characters so powerful that the Nightmare Level is just going to be insane, with only a small fraction of players having a chance to survive - but a much larger segment trying it to get the max Experience, and those players getting annhilated and discouraged with the game. 

Your Wizard's Half Plate costs two URs, whereas a fighter can get the same for a single uncommon. I don't think Max-AC creep is so much the problem, it's the 'expected' or 'average' AC that we'll see in the dungeon that is important.

Now, I'm not disagreeing with you here, I'm not thrilled with the Amulet Crown either.. but a portion of that dislike has to go towards the new Oakskin Medallion and how that would combine with the Torc and the Crown.

Yeah, but most of the arguments about why the Amulet Crown is balanced is that you have to give up an Ultra-Rare head piece (which assumes that players have an Ultra-Rare head piece).

The average/expected AC won't include old, out-of-print Purple Helms. So the Amulet Crown *will* increase average AC, if only through the use of the Torc (+ Oakskin).

And even though the Wizard can get to Half-Plate with two URs (which I think is very excessive), the Fighter can still get 2-3 points higher AC on armor with +1 Plate or Plate Armor of Attack.  But, the Fighter did have a +2 AC advantage with the Helm, and this erases that completely. 

I would say out with the crown simply because I don't want one more UR to try and get this year with so many other good choices already.

uggh just like the ring of riches we have another thread trying to get rid of a good item. Alot of people don't have all those great neck items, I know the only two neck slots I have is Necklace of the oak and the torc of Nat armor. So My char would get +2 Ac and +2 Str yeah that's good but it is really just +2 AC or +2 Str. with a Minus -1 to AC for what I would give up.

This is what a normal person would have change wise with it. Now for all the old timers out there with all the good combo and UR items for the neck well good for them if they wanna use HoP and AoW together. They are already over powered with there gear so whats the big difference/deal if they have some more power.

Can someone please link to the original thread? I don't see the artwork for this Amulet Crown anywhere in the existing threads, so I am questioning its existence.

My vote though, is to prevent ANY item from every allowing you to wear two amulets. I get the Hand of Glory. It's an extra hand, so you get an extra ring. You'd need another neck for another amulet and that's just silly.

They should make it 2 belt slots instead!  LOL 

Thanks for the post greyseer, can't believe I missed that one. I suggested a new name for it, but I'm still against it getting printed. Maybe I'm just sore about losing an Ioun Stone; I love those things.