Given the new ways of gaining a level hitting soon, I guess I'm missing the issue.

(and this from a Ranged Rogue who lends his might set out to the casters!

I've been confused on that for a while now, Mike. I think he does get the 4 set bonus, but not the strength bonus.

Rocky, you may be correct, I'm not totally sure.

Frank, I think it will still be an issue because even though there will be new ways (even though at least one way is still years away), those new ways might not be necessarily better than the current way, in which case this will still be an issue. I may leave my entire group with the Might Set instead of going with the single tokens that give +1 Level, because I like the added bonuses they come with.

First of all Mike Steele there was no bigger sleaze then equipping the Orb of Might in ranged off hand, NONE. I agree there is usually ONE between two dungeons. That is one time among all the combats that you are forced to use range, all the other time you are simply sleazing your way to level. On top of that, at least when you equip the Orb in the melee off hand you are equipping it in a slot that you can actually use it in. I use me for an example, I equip the Orb of Might and the Scepter of Might as melee weapons and I have a great ranged attack. When I melee which is about half the time I actually get to use the Orb and Scepter. In the ranged off hand it literally just sits there never being used, never even possibly being used. It wasn't a token that was for ranged, it was meant for melee, it is even a weapon in the Rangers hands. The ranged off hand is only really in the system so that we can equip the Archer's Buckler. It is the same thing for all of you Templar and Dragonscale armor set bonus people, you don't lose your bonus just because you are shooting with a bow and have the shields put away. There has never been a punishment nor should there ever be one for which type of attack you choose. There are a lot of set bonuses now and we would have to start changing them all if we worried about ranged or melee.

archmage78 wrote:

Considering that both melee and ranged builds are both very viable (ranged builds being especially strong due to Mighty Bows, Sniper Spectacles, and Ammo, amongst other things), I personally think that they are roughly equally sleazy. Or that they're both sleazy enough that arguing about which of them is sleazier isn't worthwhile!


Agreed.


I disagree with that. Clerics/Druid/Wizards have been using one-handed slings since the beginning of the game, and Clerics/Druids often use a Shield in their off hand.


I agree that there is a consistency issue here.

To summarize, I mostly agree with Archmage but wanted to point out a few details.

Mike Steele wrote:



He'd get the strength bonus if he used his ranged attack, technically, but the set bonus (extra melee damage) is 'always on' as it is, which is the main thrust of the issue.

Alright, first I don't understand how the bonus melee damage should ever be applied in ranged attacks. How is it "always on"?

I agree this is a +1 lvl issue, but I don't see any reason the orb couldn't be equippable as an off hand in ranged, if forces the person to use a one handed weapon with no shield in order to give them the set bonus with no other use. Heck the orb doesn't have any use other then the set bonus in the off hand slot for anyone but the Ranger, right (assuming they don't get the extra damage with ranged since it should only be melee)?

I guess I don't understand what the sleeze really was here since I haven't seen it first hand.

I'll do my best to explain the "sleaze" issue, BigBen.

1) The Melee Damage bonus from the Might Set does not apply to Ranged Weapons. The issue is the set bonus is still "on" with the Orb in the Ranged Slot. Let me give an example:

Paladin wears: Scepter of Might, Templar Shield, Templar Armor, Templar Helm, Girdle of Might, Boots of Might. Their Ranged slots are: +1 Dwarven Throwing Hammer and Orb of Might.
This Paladin will gain the following set bonuses: Templar Set, +1 Level (Might), +2 Melee Damage (Might). They are gaining a set bonus to the Melee Weapons, but the Orb is not equipped for their Melee attacks.

(However, the Orb change does not fix this, as they will just put the Templar Shield in the "ranged off-hand slot" still getting both set bonuses. At least they will have all the Might items in the Melee slots, and avoid the confusion you had here.)

2) "Orb Sleaze" was originally referring to Wizards putting the Orb of Might into the Ranged Off-Hand Slot, using Circlet of Elemental Mastery and +2 Staff of Power. They would then equip Boots of Might and Girdle of Might for a no drawback bonus level. They have no shield they can equip, so there is literally NO drawback.

3) The Orb of Might does have a use in the Off-Hand for everyone, +2 to Strength. That's a +1/+1. This +1/+1 does affect thrown (not missile except Mighty) weapons. The +1 Dwarven Throwing Hammer does get better with the Orb in the Missile Off Hand.

Hope that helps

Question, have a Barbarian build.

3 Might Items: Orb, Crown and Boots
Using Girdle of Frost Giant Strength and +2 Dwarven Dire Axe, so only 3 Might items.

For Ranged I used a +1 Mighty longbow. This really isn't Orb Sleaze as I would only use the longbow when I couldn't attack melee. Such as Round 1 in snow this year, or when fighting flying creatures.


We have always been able to switch weapons between ranged and melee. Suggesting we can't use a 2-handed ranged weapon if we use the Orb seems a bit of an over correction?

There are lots of other set items that are weapons. I would allow some lattitude?

I thought the gist was that you couldn't use the orb as your off0hand ranged. So I am a cleric who never uses ranged- the trick is to put the orb in my ranged off hand and never worry about it again. Thus I get a set bonus for armor and shield. I'd never thought of it personally but may use it this year since it will be the last time I can do so.

You can't use an off-hand item while using a two-handed item because you don't have a free hand to hold the off-hand item. It doesn't matter if the off-hand item is an orb, shield, or whatnot.

Druegar wrote:


Druegar, I'm not sure if you read his question correctly. If he is using a 1 handed melee weapon with the orb as part of the Might Set, he is allowed to switch to a 2-handed ranged weapon and still be 5th Level. That is the part of the "Orb Sleaze" that is still going to be allowed.